Re: [LIS-Forum] Open Access Journals?

Dear Sukhdev, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sukhdev Singh" To: Cc: "Rajesh Chandrakar" ; Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [LIS-Forum] Open Access Journals?

Here is my input to Rajesh comments:

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But, I don't see any future of this model in India as I have doubt that Indian Govt or the organization concerned would say, "O.K. Go ahead author. We will pay your expenses to the publisher for your publication".

Let us see the whole picture. A scientific paper is not a fiction. It is an outcome of some research work. These works are funded directly or indirectly by Govt. Agencies. Add salaries of the scientists / scholars and the infrastructure cost. It is a huge investment. What all I am arguing is that it makes sense for Govt. / Funding agency to spend extra bit to ensure that publication of the research output [article] is Open Access.

I can understand your feelings Sukhdev. That's true that the work is directly and indirectly funded by the govt/organization concerned. But, still I have doubt the second step for which you are quite firm. I can hope for the best on your thought.

Doesn't it cost to subscribe traditional journals? Then why not to Pre-Pay in sponsoring OA publications?

It is not that it is only OA Journals [like from BioMed Central / PLoS] charges the author [ or indirectly its funding agency]. Perhaps everybody knows that authors have to pay even to the traditional model journals. "Page Charges" is the term used by number of foreign Journals. Take a look at some examples: http://www.asabe.org/pubs/29_Jour_Manuscript_Submission.html http://www.jcn.or.kr/home/journal/pagecharges.asp?globalmenu=13 http://www.biophysj.org/misc/ifora.shtml http://www.awma.org/journal/faq.htm http://www.amstat.org/publications/jasa/index.cfm?fuseaction=ifa

It appears that there are norms to reimburse these "Page Charges" if an article is accepted in a journal of repute [having minimum impact factor of one].

I do not see any reason why Govt / Funding agencies will refuse to bear the cost of excellent work. Doesn't it sponsor conferences or depute its employees to such events in India or abroad? As already

Within the India, yes, there is no problem, every organization sponsors for conference. As far as abroad is concerned, again I have doubt. Let me ask you, how many times you have gone to out of India either for attending the conference or presenting the paper on your organization's expenses?

pointed out by Dr. Satya, if other countries can sponsor publications, then why can't India. Moreover it is not necessary for Govt Agencies to fund directly the authors. It can help sponsoring Professional Bodies to establish OA Journals. To some extend it does so by allowing its scientists / professionals to be on journals' editorial boards.

And let us not forget the opportunities of establishing Institutional / Central self-archiving repositories. Which may be the short-cut for India to OA its intellectual output.

--Sukhdev Singh

On 24/05/06, Rajesh Chandrakar wrote:

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My comments as follows:

----- Original Message ----- From: "sathya" To: "Sukhdev Singh" ; Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [LIS-Forum] Open Access Journals?

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From another approach, for OA Journals, three models can be considered.

1. Author pays model. This is like your pre-paid model. The funding agency funds author. He has the freedom to chose the journal. Examples: Biomed Central, Hinawi (Egypt), PLOS, Springer's Open Choice.

Author pay model is supported by UK Govt. JISC (funding agency) pays to

Don't think, I am against the OA. I mean to say that India has to go long long way in the area of OA as Dr. Sathya said in his comments. I also support Institutional Repository (IR), I believe every institution/organization/universities should have their own IR. There ofcourse research output can be made available on open access. There is no harm and it is an excellent idea of OA. I hope you are taking it healthy discussion. With regards, Rajesh the

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publisher for author's publication. Similarly in US, there funding agency does for their authors. But, I don't see any future of this model in India as I have doubt that Indian Govt or the organization concerned would say, "O.K. Go ahead author. We will pay your expenses to the publisher for your publication".

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2. Sponsor pays model. This model is similar to Yahoo and Google model. The circulation of scientific literature is considered low compared to popular literature. Hence, the commercial viability of this model is still a question mark. Some publishers have successfully used a mixed media approach -- Print+E where print generates the required revenue for sustenance and the e-version is hosted free for all. MedKnow, Indian Academy of Sciences, etc. A large no. of peer-reviewed open access journals are following this model. If the print users migrate completely to online and stop subscribing to print version, this model may suffer a

collapse. > > > > I am agree with this. In such situation, I don't see any future of this > > model. And they have to find any alternative. > > > > > 3. Directly funded by funding agencies. For all practical purpose, this > > has > > > to be the Government of the country. You have INDMED model. Publishers > > are > > > not much concerned about revenue loss as their print revenues should be > > > still stable enough. You also have Brazillian model like SciELO, > > completely > > > funded by The Government there. > > > > This is also one of the dark area of Indian journals, except the area like > > medical and engineering. Unless the society/publisher itself come forward to > > bear the cost of its publication. > > > > > More models may emerge. From a business model perspective, OA domain is > > > still very nebulous and experimental and is still far away from providing > > > an alternative to the traditional scholarly publishing model > > > (Library-pays-by-budget-Model!). > > > > I also believe, some more new models will appear in future. > > > > With regards, > > > > Rajesh > > > > > > > Sathya > > > -------------------------- > > > N V Sathyanarayana > > > Informatics (India) Ltd > > > Bangalore 560003, India. > > > > > > FREE! World's largest portal for 3000+ Open Access Journals > > > http://www.openj-gate.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Sukhdev Singh" <esukhdev@gmail.com> > > > To: <lis-forum@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in> > > > Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 5:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [LIS-Forum] Open Access Journals? > > > > > > > > > > What I can understand from your email is that you want to say again > > > > that someone has to pay for the open access - be it the author, > > > > publisher or employer / funding agency of the author. > > > > > > > > But same is also true in "Traditional Model" or Closed Access. In the > > > > traditional / subscription based model also the Governmental Agency / > > > > Funding Agency pays subscription fee to acquire / subscribe the > > > > journals into their Library for its employee / scholars to "consume" > > > > literature before they can "produce". > > > > > > > > Let us remember one thing - in academic domain - both the consumers > > > > and producers are the same - the scientific / academic community. They > > > > consume literature to produce literature. And this circle is ensured > > > > with the help of public money in some way or the other. > > > > > > > > Let me introduce two terms for the business models of the Open and the > > > > Closed Access. > > > > > > > > "Pre-Paid" for Open Access Publishing - The funding agency Pre-Pays > > > > for the Consume-Produce Circle by spending on the publication of the > > > > research results which it has been funding. This payment has to be > > > > made only once for all members of the scientific community. > > > > > > > > "Post-Paid" for Traditional Publishing - The funding agency does not > > > > pay an extra bit for the research funded by it. The authors after > > > > utilising the public money for carrying out research, get the results > > > > published in traditional journals. No payment is required for > > > > publication but the authors surrenders all rights of their paper. The > > > > best papers most often are published in foreign journals. Later on - > > > > the funding agency - makes the journal available in its library after > > > > paying subscription cost. In case of foreign journal it has to shell > > > > out foreign currency to get back the results of even that work which > > > > it originally funded. Multiple payments are required to be made if the > > > > govt. / funding agency has multiple libraries spread over a > > > > geographical area. Even for digital copies / version the licence fee > > > > would be in proportionate to the number of end - users. > > > > > > > > It can be easily seen that "Pre-Paid" model makes more sence for > > > > research funding agencies. > > > > > > > > So if it costs to publish science - then why not to adopt "Pre-Paid" > > > > model? > > > > > > > > > > > > --Sukhdev Singh, NIC. > > > > http://openmed.nic.in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------- > > > > On 20/05/06, Chandrima Roy <croy@docdelserv.com> wrote: > > > > Based on my understanding, discussions and as per the details given by > > > > Peter Suber on http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm > > > > > > > > Can we summarize the points as under? - > > > > Features of Open Access: > > > > > > > > A) Free for User > > > > i) Users are free to quote or refer the text > > > > ii) They are free to download > > > > iii) Users are free to add the downloaded text to their archive > > > > iv) As Online Access Literature is free of most copyright and > > > > licensing restrictions, no permissions are required to make the > > > > information freely available on users' platform, from any other platform > > > > > > > > B) Authors/ Publishers have to bear the cost > > > > i) As an Author, if one has information but cannot > > > > pay, then? Can he look for subsidy? > > > > ii) A Publisher, who is either Commercial or > > > > Governmental needs to fund the project. So, the finance will come from > > > > where? > > > > a) Excess charging of Print Version? (That is possible in case of > > > > established journals only) > > > > b) Subsidy? (Again available to established journal only) OR > > > > c) Advertisements? (Again depends upon the Journal Standard) > > > > > > > > Chandrima Roy > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > >> > > > >> Date: Thu, > > > >> 18 May 2006 > > > >> 14:14:20 > > > >> +0530 > > > >> From: > > > >> Sukhdev > > > >> Singh < http://ncsi.iisc.ernet.in/mailman/listinfo/lis-forum > > > >> esukhdev > > > >> at gmail.com > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> Who bears the cost of the author's intellectual inputs?!! > > > >> > > > >> The same > > > >> should > > > >> bear the cost of author's publication. > > > >> > > > >> What is reported in scholarly journals? -- Research output. > > > >> Who does that research? -- Scientists / Scholars. > > > >> > > > >> And Scientists / Scholars get salary for that. They need > > > >> infrastructure > > > >> to work in. They work on Research Projects that cost > > > >> money > > > >> . > > > >> > > > >> Who bears all the cost? > > > >> > > > >> Publication costs are just a fraction of the total cost of the > > > >> research > > > >> output. So it makes sense to spend a bit extra to expose the > > > >> research > > > >> results, gain maximum impact of it and build ground for > > > >> further > > > >> research. > > > >> > > > >> So funding agencies > > > >> ( Govt > > > >> . or Others) need to spend little extra to > > > >> publish > > > >> the research / project outcome which they > > > >> sponser > > > >> . Public > > > >> funding > > > >> agencies have their publication wings - they just need to > > > >> allow > > > >> free / open access to their publications. > > > >> Atleast > > > >> to their > > > >> online > > > >> versions. Indian Council for Medical Research is an example > > > >> which > > > >> provides free access to their journal - Indian Journal of > > > >> Medical Research. > > > >> > > > >> Well there are other models as followed by > > > >> BioMed > > > >> Central and > > > >> PLoS > > > >> . > > > >> Advertising revenues could be other. > > > >> > > > >> Don't we have Free-to-Air TV Channels? > > > >> Hey! Do we pay for listening to FM Radio Channels? - Private or Public. > > > >> > > > >> I would suggest - > > > >> > > > >> --All publications consuming public money to produce should be > > > >> publicly > > > >> accessible - at least their online versions. > > > >> > > > >> --All publicly funded research should be mandated to be open-archived > > > >> by > > > >> the author with in a time frame. > > > >> > > > >> --All teaching / > > > >> reseach > > > >> institutions should set-up their > > > >> institutional > > > >> repositories. > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Sukhdev > > > >> Singh, NIC. > > > >> http://openmed.nic.in http://openmed.nic.in > > > >> > > > >> Date: Thu, > > > >> 18 May 2006 > > > >> 02:18:16 > > > >> -0700 (PDT) > > > >> From: > > > >> ranjit > > > >> dharmapurikar > > > >> < http://ncsi.iisc.ernet.in/mailman/listinfo/lis-forum > > > >> d_ranjit > > > >> at yahoo.com > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> Dear Sir, > > > >> You have asked about the cost of open source journals. > > > >> who > > > >> will bear the cost. Of course, the publisher, > > > >> agency > > > >> , person who is putting the journal on the net > > > >> is > > > >> required to bear the cost. Keeping the facility of > > > >> open > > > >> source journals is a way of an advertisement. > > > >> Generally what I have observed that these open source > > > >> journals > > > >> are very old. > > > >> Whenevr > > > >> they found that there > > > >> is > > > >> not demand for such articles then they > > > >> declear > > > >> it > > > >> as > > > >> an open source journal. At least with this open > > > >> source > > > >> journals users will learn and will come to know > > > >> that > > > >> such titled journals are available. So it is a > > > >> way > > > >> of an advertisement. What I think. Like out dated > > > >> goods > > > >> are sold by maximum discount for attracting the > > > >> customers > > > >> towards new and fresh product. The same > > > >> story > > > >> can be applicable with open source journals > > > >> R.G. > > > >> Dharmapurikar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> LIS-Forum mailing list > > > >> LIS-Forum@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in > > > >> http://ncsi.iisc.ernet.in/mailman/listinfo/lis-forum > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > LIS-Forum mailing list > > > > LIS-Forum@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in > > > > http://ncsi.iisc.ernet.in/mailman/listinfo/lis-forum > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > LIS-Forum mailing list > > > LIS-Forum@ncsi.iisc.ernet.in > > > http://ncsi.iisc.ernet.in/mailman/listinfo/lis-forum > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > --------------------- > > Rajesh Chandrakar, Commonwealth Professional Fellow > > Scientific & Technical Officer > > > > INFLIBNET (INFormation and LIBrary NETwork) Centre > > An IUC of University Grants Commission > > Near Gujarat University Guest House, > > PB No. 4116, Navrangpura, > > Ahmedabad - 380 009, India > > > > Tel. +91-(0)79-26305971/ 8528/ 4695(O), 26873805(R) > > Mobile: +91-9898087422 > > > > Fax: +91-(0)79-26300990, 263007816 > > > > E-mail: rajesh@inflibnet.ac.in; rchandrakar@gmail.com > > Website: http://www.inflibnet.ac.in > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > --------------------- > > > >